Comments on: Morals without God? http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2010/10/morals-without-god/ a project of the National Humanities Center Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:42:46 +0000 hourly 1 By: Jason King http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2010/10/morals-without-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3376 Mon, 01 Nov 2010 14:02:17 +0000 http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/?p=1557#comment-3376 This conversation, while ending here, continues on Facebook. Join us there by logging on to your Facebook account and proceeding to our group: On the Human.

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By: Frans de Waal http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2010/10/morals-without-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3342 Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:51:47 +0000 http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/?p=1557#comment-3342 Science and Religion

What is striking about the hundreds of reactions to my blog here and elsewhere (such as opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com) is that even though 90% of my text questions the religious origins of human morality, and wonders if we need a God to be good, it is the other 10%, in which I tentatively assign a role to religion, that has drawn by far the most ire. Atheists don’t like any less than 100% agreement with their position.

To have a productive debate, religion needs to recognize the power of the scientific method and the truths it has revealed, but its opponents need to recognize that one cannot simply dismiss a social phenomenon found in every major society. If humans are inherently religious, or at least show rituals related to the supernatural, there is a big question to be answered. The question is not whether God exists, or not — which I find a monumentally uninteresting question defined by the narrow parameters of monotheism — but why humans universally feel the need for supernatural entities. Is this just to stay socially connected or does it also underpin morality? And if so, what will happen to morality in its absence?

Just posing such an obvious question has become controversial in an atmosphere in which one has to be either pro science or pro religion. How did we get maneuvered into this polarization, this small-mindedness, as if we are taking part in the Oxford Debating Society, where all that matters is winning or losing? Remember, we are talking about how to lead our lives and why try to be good — very personal questions — and all we get is a shouting match. There are in fact no answers to these questions, only approximations, and while science may be an excellent source of information it is simply not designed to offer any inspiration. It used to be that science and religion went together, and in fact (as I tried to illustrate with Bosch’s paintings) Western science ripened in the bosom of Christianity and its explicit desire for truth. Ironically, even atheism is a product of this desire, as explained by the philosopher John Gray:

“Christianity struck at the root of pagan tolerance of illusion. In claiming that there is only one true faith, it gave truth a supreme value it had not had before. It also made disbelief in the divine possible for the first time. The long-delayed consequence of the Christian faith was an idolatry of truth that found its most complete expression in atheism.” (Straw Dogs, 2002).

Those who wish to remove religion and define morality as the pursuit of scientifically defined well-being (à la Sam Harris) should read up on earlier attempts in this regard, such as Walden Two by B. F. Skinner, who thought that humans could achieve greater happiness and productivity if they just followed reward and punishment schemes. Skinner’s colleague John Watson envisioned “baby factories” which would dispense with the “mawkish” emotions humans are prone to, an idea applied with disastrous consequences in Romanian orphanages. And talking of Romania, was not the entire Communist “experiment” an attempt at a society without God? Apart from the question how moral these societies turned out to be, I find it intriguing that Communism began to look more and more like a religion itself. The singing, marching, reciting of poems and pledges and waving in the air of Little Red Books smacked of holy fervor, hence my remark that any movement that tries to promote a certain moral agenda — even while denying God — will soon look like a religion. Since people look up to those perceived as more knowledgeable, anyone who wants to promote a certain agenda, even one inspired by science, will inevitably come face to face with the human tendency to follow leaders and let them do the thinking.

Individual and Community

The German philosopher Immanuel Kant saw as little value in human kindness as former U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney did in energy conservation. Cheney mocked conservation as “a sign of personal virtue” that, sadly, wouldn’t do the planet any good. Kant praised compassion as “beautiful,” yet considered it irrelevant to a virtuous life. Who needs tender feelings if duty is all that matters?

I had to think of this reading Andrew Jehan’s commentary that anyone with a natural drive to act altruistically may be less deserving of our esteem than someone who has no such drive, yet still shows altruism. The opposite view was voiced by Joel Marks, who prefers someone with the spontaneous impulse to help over someone who helps based on the calculation that it will be good to do so. It is an interesting dilemma, comparable to the question whom you want to be married to, someone who loves you or someone who is equally nice but acts out of duty? The latter partner is surely putting in more effort, and deserves our admiration, but I’d much prefer the former. Human morality is sturdier and more reliable if supported by genuine prosocial tendencies, which is why it is so important to demonstrate, as I have done in my primate research, that many of these tendencies are older than our species.

Morality is a system of behavioral rules that transcends the individual. Self-interest is of course recognized, but it is weighed against the interests of the larger community. The typical argument runs like “we understand that you might want to steal someone else’s possessions, but if everyone were to do so, society would fall apart, and you would not like it either if it happened to you.” Morality appeals to the community level, and indirectly to your own interests as a member of the community. It is designed to reduce strife and promote social cohesion. Concern about the community is to some degree recognizable in chimpanzees, but humans are masters at it and have turned it into a set of social norms that everyone is supposed to obey.

This is in everyone’s interest, albeit to differing degrees (e.g. the rich have more interest in rules of possession than the poor). So, when Stephanie Brown comments that “surely evolutionary pressures run counter to … investment in matters that do not affect us,” her interpretation of the disinterestedness of Adam Smith’s “impartial spectator” may be a bit too literal. Smith meant that we judge situations as moral or immoral even if we are not directly involved, but this is not to deny our interest in the moral level of society as a whole. Morality promotes cooperation, as Darwin already speculated, so it is important for us to monitor it at every level, whether we are directly affected or not. As soon as morality begins to crumble around us, our own well-being as a member of society is at risk.

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By: William Hong http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2010/10/morals-without-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3324 Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:31:18 +0000 http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/?p=1557#comment-3324 I think that Buddhism would answer a lot of Professor de Waal’s questions. This is because Buddhism is not based on any God (Buddha was just a man) to make sure that you are moral, but stresses the importance of practicing selfless behavior as guided by your conscience. In fact, doing “good” because it is stated somewhere in a scripture or commandment is less valued in Buddhism than doing a good deed out of the compassion in your heart.

Furthermore, Buddhist practice and beliefs are scientifically-based. Many of the things that Siddhartha predicted when he was here on earth are just starting to be confirmed scientifically. This includes the size of atom and dark matter.

Maybe what religion is good for is practicing what we intuitively know. We cannot always count on science to prove something before we believe it because there are limitations on how fast science can improve and how fast it can generate information. Therefore, as science catches up, we can try to live our lives to the fullest by using our most powerful tool-the mind-to truly “know.” This is the benefit of Buddhism.

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By: Charles Wolverton http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2010/10/morals-without-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3310 Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:24:33 +0000 http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/?p=1557#comment-3310 In the final paragraphs of the essay, Prof de Waal expresses concern about the moral status of a prospective religion-free society (although in a pluralistic society, the question seems better addressed at the level of community, defined broadly). It isn’t clear whether implicit in his concern is that the moral status of some religion-infused societies/communities is (or ever was) admirably high. If that is implicit, it would be enlightening to hear about those societies/communities. Surely no one in this forum considers the moral status of contemporary religion-infused societies (including, sadly, the US) even acceptable, never mind admirably high (or can have failed to note that the moral status of the US seems steadily to decline as the degree of religious infusion increases). It’s enough to “give us pause”.

Commenter Paul makes a point that I think warrants elaboration. Many who thankfully did not “absorb the basic tenets of Christian morality” (as practiced rather than preached) from the society of their youth (in my case, a “morality” that included 50s Bible belt racism, sexism, homophobia, tribalism, et al) nor any other dogmatic and theistic belief system nonetheless feel no void in need of being filled, whether by science or anything else. Such people are often labeled “nihilist”, commonly but mistakenly understood to be a debilitating curse. Yet in my experience, they often are a generally cheerful, productive, and arguably “moral” bunch. So, I suggest that we actually do have some idea of what a religion-free community might be like, and it’s actually rather attractive.

As for criticism of the polemic strategies of so-called “new atheists” (seemingly quite irrelevant to the topic at hand but apparently de rigueur in some circles), it should at least be accurate lest it worse on the critic than the target. Eg, the observation about “brights” is at best misleading (see Brights Movement entry in wiki), there is nothing “supposed” about Dawkins’ status as a “champion” of evolutionary theory, and the incoherence of “fundamentalist, war mongering atheists” admits no substantive response.

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By: Stephanie L Brown http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2010/10/morals-without-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3289 Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:50:27 +0000 http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/?p=1557#comment-3289 Moral Systems Without God
In his compelling analysis, Frans de Waal aligns human morality with nonhuman moral instincts, while simultaneously distinguishing human morality as efforts to “judge the appropriateness of actions” that do not affect us. As he puts it, distinctly human morality is characterized by “a move toward universal standards combined with an elaborate system of justification, monitoring, and punishment.” This statement, however true, begs the question of “why”. Why do we care what others do? De Waal notes that “at this point religion comes in,” and he describes how religious beliefs may provide something that science cannot. Without disagreeing with this latter point, must religion come in to explain the uniquely human rules of engagement? As another evolutionary psychologist, I wonder how evolution supports the considerable amounts of energy and time that go into monitoring and punishing others, not to mention the mental gymnastics required to justify our behavior. Surely evolutionary pressures run counter to this extreme level of investment in matters that do not affect us. Or do these matters affect us? Are we missing some sort of profound benefit to our genes that justifies these top-down, conscious and unconscious mental gymnastics that are time consuming, and result in compulsive monitoring of ourselves and others?

To address this question requires that the analysis consider selection pressures on qualities that are uniquely human. Many scientists agree that humans are unique in the extent to which they must give prolonged care to helpless infants. My work suggests that this uniquely human condition shaped a human capacity for suppressing self-interest, at high cost, over long periods of time, and even in the absence of reciprocity. The implication of this capacity is that self interested motives such as the desire for resources and sex are at war with our “other-regarding” motives that direct sustained help to others. It is not unreasonable to speculate that this almost ubiquitous war between self and other, and among others, (moral dilemmas) produces “WarGames” (MGM,1983), systems of moral thought that help us run simulations to decide when and whether we should choose ourselves or others. This process would create increasingly intricate and subtle neuroanalytic capabilities for attempting to solve the unsolvable. Because these mechanisms, iterated over time, equip us with rather large computational devices, we are able to anticipate the inherent tragedies that result from this war between self and other, and among different others. Whether it is a jealous lover who cannot reconcile his hatred and love for his wife or a single mother who cannot reconcile her cocaine addiction with her need to work for a living, on some level we know that motivational conflicts can and do result in tragedy. As we are interdependent with individuals in our social world, perhaps it is in our evolutionary interest to use our reason to create and follow rules, to reduce (even slightly) the prevalence and incidence of harm to all. In this way, the uniquely human part of morality—our allegiance to creating, following, and enforcing rules—may amount to a desperate act of altruism, so compelling that we give up our own freedom, wants, and needs to try to prevent the horrific inevitable consequences of being endowed with competing and contradictory social instincts.

As for God and religion, perhaps it takes faith in a higher power to live with the irresistible conclusion that the war between self and other cannot be won. But then this means that faith also excuses us from following the moral systems that are distinctly human, permitting arguably the most heinous types of tragedy.

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By: Dave Elders http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2010/10/morals-without-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3288 Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:35:39 +0000 http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/?p=1557#comment-3288 The conclusion we end up with often depends upon where in the continuum of the story of life we start and stop. The question may not simply be answered because conscious (but not self-conscious)animals exhibit traits which self conscious human mind defines as displaying a kind of morality that religion claims is rooted in God. But doesn’t true morality demand self-consciousness–that is that we knowingly act in an unselfish manner for another’s benefit? At least some philosophers and religionists alike have concluded that the highest morality is giving up one’s own life to save another…a child or perhaps a fellow soldier. That kind of choice would not seem destined to insure the survival of the best among us. It would be hard to argue that animalistic behavior which might seem to us as rudimentary morality would seem to the animal as such. They just do what their conscious but not self-conscious brains direct them to do. With this as context, the notion that “brain is consciousness and mind is God” perhaps points to the larger question: if self-consciousness is required as the basis for true moral choosing, where then did it come from? Self-conscious human beings, not God, created their religions. But what makes an animal self-conscious rather than just conscious? To me it is a reality question not a religious question. If we start the story at what we think is the beginning instead of part way along, is it possible/likely that it was and is God after all who created a reality in which human beings could evolve (perhaps God’s process for growth to perfection in the finite?) to a point where they would come to manifest characteristics–like self-conscious morality–which must surely be inherent in an absolute creator personality? And is it also possible that it is unique personality which God bestows on humans during the evolutionary process which forever separates personal human beings as self-conscious from their animal forbears whose growth apparently stopped (at least so far) at the level of consciousness.

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By: Myranda http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2010/10/morals-without-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3272 Sun, 24 Oct 2010 20:45:49 +0000 http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/?p=1557#comment-3272 The main problem of morality without God, is that it is either nonsensical, nonexistent, or a distortion of the true meaning of the word. Science is a very powerful tool, but it is limited in that it can only describe the world as it is. If we take science/naturalism seriously, we must admit that all teleological explanations, all purposes, all non-material things are illusory at best. What we refer to as “right” or “wrong” is at bottom a judgment rendered by society expressing its preferences–likes and dislikes–for no reason other than the operations of blind chance. Certainly, you may think you have logical and well-considered reasons for believing such ideas, but in reality it is simply that your neurons are firing a certain way due to genetics, environmental conditioning, and chance. The “morality” of a highly educated philanthropist is equal to that of a petty thief. Ultimately, the naturalistic view believes that “morality” in the truest sense of the word, is an illusion.

Stating that morality cannot exist without God does not mean that religious people are more moral than non-religious people or atheists. It is simply admitting the fact that any discussion of morality that does not presuppose a God, or at least something higher than mere fermions and bosons, is somewhat ridiculous. To actually get anywhere in most discussions of morality, we say “assume life has meaning”, “assume we have control over our actions”, “assume our ideas of right and wrong matter” without any explanation or support for these assumptions. Using a philosophy that ultimately destroys these assumptions to build something on top of them is useless. Any such moral debate will, under some level of scrutiny, collapse under its own weight.

I do find it interesting that the existence of altruistic instincts is being used as evidence against religion. If there is a Creator God, is it so surprising that he would create human beings with some kind of natural inclination to moral behavior? Even the Bible says “Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law…. they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” (Romans 2:14-15). It seems to me the heart of this argument is a chicken-and-egg type question: Did God provide revelation to clarify the morals he had already written into our biological make-up? Or did humans somehow evolve conscience-like instincts and then invent religion as a means of justifying it? I feel that how we answer such questions will go a ways toward deciding how seriously we should take morality.

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By: Tsvetoslav Shalev http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2010/10/morals-without-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3238 Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:25:07 +0000 http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/?p=1557#comment-3238 In our search for truth, it seems to me that we need a completely different approach altogether. The answer is an actual problem, for our very thoughts are but an automated process. We feel, we think, we believe things are. But whether things are or aren’t, it is a matter of personal experience. Is there God? If not, then we have to throw away a fact that there’s such thing as universal consciousness. Then why are we working so hard on creating such? Why do we establish connections, why do we try and find people who’d agree with us on a given statement?

On the other hand, you have morality, the moral freedom. We use it, we claim it’s there to undo the chaos, to support life; a building block of progress, both inwards and outwards. But then why does our society flourish, with immorality in its very core? Personally, what would you choose: an eternal afterlife, or providing your loved ones with the things they need now?

Morality and God is all the same. We give it different properties, we try and organize it, we try and find it a place in our tiny little space called ego, put a label on it and then find something else to do. In my opinion, it all comes down to personal choice – whichever it is, it is the right one!

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By: María Ávila http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2010/10/morals-without-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3232 Fri, 22 Oct 2010 08:47:10 +0000 http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/?p=1557#comment-3232 We can grasp others’ mental contents -their beliefs and intentions, and also their interests and needs. These grasped contents are certainly weaker than ours. If there is a full contradiction between my own and not my own interests, it is due to the fact that only the former (in the beginning) are able to guide my behaviour. (What do I mean by full contradiction? It only focuses on really costly and effortful helping behaviour. In addition, this contradiction does not cease even after considering, firstly, kin altruism, secondly, reciprocal altruism, and thirdly, possible gains in social prestige for altruist behaviour.) However, human subjects know that both–my own and others’ interiority–are at a similar level morally speaking. I would suggest that this contradiction between an actual, practical, lower-rank status and a theoretical, recognisable equal-rank status is one of the defining features of human beings. This problem, this contradictory duality of opposed estimations, can only be alleviated by means of an effort aiming at focusing on the complete known reality.

Boyer, 2008 has suggested that the capacity for episodic future thought –also referred to as prospective mental time travel– may underlie the human ability to make choices with high long-term benefits. (It is well known that humans discount the value of future rewards over time. This issue –although, in my view, it is a less interesting one– is similar to the role of interests of others.) Likewise, the capacity for inner speech (an ability that arises at the age of seven) may support the effort aiming at focusing on the complete known reality -that is, on the truth. What is the conclusion? Morality -and moral freedom – is supported by the human capacity for objective (and not merely subjective, selfish) knowledge. Thus, morality would be beyond non-human primates. Since the Big Bang and since unicellular beings, a very long and, at the end of the day, clearly progressive evolution has produced us, our language, our developmental trajectory from children to adults and our capacity to focus on the truth or objective reality.

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By: Sally Haslanger http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/2010/10/morals-without-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3228 Fri, 22 Oct 2010 04:05:21 +0000 http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/on-the-human/?p=1557#comment-3228 I think a number of different questions are being run together. For example:
1) Is it possible to believe that something is moral or immoral without believing that there is a God?
Of course, many atheists believe in and act on moral principles.
2) Is it possible for someone to behave in ways that we consider moral (or they consider moral) without their having a belief in God?
Of course, even theists can recognize that some atheists behave morally.
3) Are there any objective moral rules binding on us, i.e., a source of genuine moral obligation, without God?
Some theists believe that God is the source of normativity, the bindingness of morality on us. Kant, utilitarians, many others disagree. The issue here isn’t where we got the idea of morality, or why we sometimes behave morally, but what makes morality obligatory. I don’t see how comparisons with other primates help us answer this question. To inquire into the source of moral obligation is to inquire into the foundation of moral obligation, not its origin. After all, I may have evolved to believe certain actions are moral, and to act in accordance with those beliefs, even though nothing is genuinely, or objectively, obligatory.

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